Can mindfulness really help with my MS?

Ok, you’ve heard all about mindfulness and maybe you’re even considering giving it a go. But can it actually help you manage life with MS? Is it just one of those trendy well-being fads like eating charcoal or moss smoothies (yep, they’re both actually real)?

 Mindfulness teacher, Justin Standfield, lives with MS and he joins us to dispel a couple of mindful myths. Plus, he shares some practical ways that he manages his own MS symptoms using mindfulness. 

Join us to learn tips, tricks and approaches to mindful matters and MS.

Episode Notes

MS and mindfulness with Justin Standfield - video on YouTube
Mindfulness and MS - Information from MS Trust
Wellbeing and MS - Information from MS Trust
How to meditate for beginners - information from the NHS
comeonbabylightmyfire.com - Justin's Blog
Justin on X

 A selection mindfulness apps (not reviewed or endorsed by the MS Trust)
Headspace
Calm
Insight Timer
Simple Habit
Buddhify

Transcript

Mindfulness in MS

Nick  
Hi, everyone, you're listening to Nick.

Helena  
And I'm Helena. And we both work here at the MS Trust, which is a charity for people affected by MS in the UK. And we are here today to help you make sense of MS.

Nick  
Yeah, and this is our podcast, which is: multiple sclerosis, Breaking it down. And we're going to welcome in the new year with a special podcast today.

Helena  
Yeah, happy New Year, everyone. We're looking forward to be bringing you lots of interesting episodes of breaking it down during 2024.,

Nick  
Yeah, definitely looking forward to that. Hellena. You and I you know, like I think, me and you talked a lot about different things that we wanted to try and start for the year or New Year's resolutions that I'm not very good at keeping. Do you have any new year's resolutions? 

Helena  
Oh, gosh, no! you see, I don't really like New Year's resolutions. I always used to do them beforehand. But I always find that there's like a whole pressure of a new year. And then you know, you're trying to change everything in in January, when you normally really kind of tired and worn out from all the stress of Christmas. So, I think you're almost like setting yourself up a little bit for failure and disappointment. But yet I get like New Year can be like a fresh start or something. But it's technically just the date in the calendar, isn't it? So, you could start whenever, but I guess like middle of February resolutions doesn't really sound as good as new year's resolution, does it?

Nick  
Yeah, just doesn't have quite the same ring to it does it? But yeah, it is a difficult time of year as well because you go from like from the festive season straight, if you are doing the New Year's resolutions for like on the ‘health kick’ kind of thing, to straight into that as can be quite a difficult transition I always fine for me personally anyway. But yeah, so I think with this podcast, instead of sort of, you know, cutting everything out or trying something new in January, in terms of like exercise and diet. We know there's lots of information and content out there about those things. So, we're going to do something a little bit different. We're going to talk today about mindfulness.

Helena  
And I'm really excited about this topic, because it's something that I would really like to learn more about and probably start practicing myself. But I've always been really worried that my brain is just simply too busy to be able to do it. As I was preparing for this episode, I thought I would Google the definition of mindfulness. And obviously, this was just like the first thing that popped up in Google and it said, ‘The quality or state of being conscious or aware of something’, which made me question a little bit how awake and conscious I am, at most times, but especially without any coffee. But it also made me think about how often I can like really zone out and not be aware of things that's going on. I think sometimes, especially when MS fatigue takes over, I can just find ways myself like kind of staring into the wall and kind of disappearing a little bit like I'm off to space, or sometimes when my mind gets like really bombarded with too much things, or when it's really noisy, I just kind of check out a little bit. So, in there can get a bit overwhelmed or stressed by things. So, I like the idea of mindfulness. Because quite a lot of people has actually suggested it to me just because of what some of these issues that I struggle with.

Nick  
Yeah, it's interesting, it's nice, I think we will have this idea of mindfulness, you know, that, that we kind of perceive it as, as you have to be underneath a waterfall or like on a beach and like doing the lotus position or and all that stuff. So, it's interesting hearing you just read out that that definition, actually, you know, I'm sure we'll get into this with our guests. But it's yeah, you don't have to be, you know, sat in a really uncomfortable position and somewhere beautiful. You could do it anywhere. So yeah, so I think with that in mind, before giving anything too much away, we should probably dive into our interview, which is with Justin Stanfield. Justin's a mindfulness teacher and he also lives with MS. So, he has a really good background from both living with MS and also how to best practice mindfulness. And he has some really good insight into some really kind of specific MS related practices that you can do as well. So, he's going to share his journey. We'll also hear about how you might be starting to have a go at some of these things Helena as well as you chat to Justin. So, I think without any further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Helena  
I'm here today with Justin Stanfield. And we're going to talk a little bit about mindfulness. But before we start, Justin, would you mind telling us a little bit about who you are and your own MS journey? 

Justin
Yeah, certainly. Thank you. So yes, I'm Justin, I'm based on the south coast of, of the UK. And professionally, I teach mindfulness among some other things related to resilience and wellbeing, I also train leaders on how to be more effective at that job. So in amongst all of that, I also have some time for my family as well. So, I have a son, married have a dog, quite a busy life, actually. And I have MS as well. So, one of the things that I've noticed is that in recent years, I'm pleased to see a growth and an openness towards things like mindfulness and other practices from people who have MS and from professionals as well. 

Helena  
Yeah, it's been it's been a bit of a buzzword recently it hasn't it? I think it's, it's really nice to see. Do you mind talking us through a little bit about how you were diagnosed yourself?



Justin
Yeah, certainly. Like many people, it was a long road, actually. So, from my first episode of MS in 2001, the diagnosis took 13 years. So, I originally had optic neuritis in 2001. And then over the years, a few other things weren't quite right. But finally, in 2014, that's when I was diagnosed. And yeah, at that point, it wasn't really a shock. I'll be honest with you; it was a bit of a relief to finally have some questions answered. And looking forward to getting on to some treatment as well. And being part of, I suppose that the system around MS and having appointments and finally, feeling like somebody is noticing that things are not right for me. Yeah. 

Helena  
Gosh, that's a long time waiting, isn't it? 

Justin
Yeah.

Helena
And so, for MS awareness week, last year, we streamed a video of you talking about and doing mindfulness, and it was really popular. So, I thank you so much for coming back to talk to us about it. Can you can you tell us how did you start with mindfulness? What? What made you want to get into it?

Justin
I think I was about 16, when I first discovered meditation, and although it wasn't mindfulness meditation, as such, or at least it wasn't labelled mindfulness meditation, looking back at it was really some of those core practices of noticing the breath and accepting the present moment. And whatever's going on. It really was mindfulness. Then, few years later, I decided to learn more traditional Buddhist meditation, and then expanded that into what's now called mindfulness-based stress reduction. So MBSR is pretty well known nowadays, and then have since completed teacher training courses, additional training beyond that, and I've practiced regularly for a number of years. The original interest that I had in meditation and mindfulness, I suppose was really just more exploring reality, and for a 16-year-old, that sort of sounds a little bit grandiose, really now I say it, but it was just sort of, you know, what else is there? And how do we perceive the world? and how our mental health can adjust how we perceive the world was quite fascinating to me. Then, in recent years around the MS diagnosis, I just put the two things together. And in my mind, it made sense to say, well, if part of my reality, part of my present moment experience is sometimes discomfort is sometimes pain, this sometimes tension, weird sensations, also the sort of mood aspects of having MS as well, to be frank, you know, it's not, it's not always fun. And actually, if mindfulness could help with some of that, that's that see what's out there. So, then my research took me to quite a few different clinical trials and academic papers and just talking to other people who have chronic pain conditions as well. 

Helena  
That’s really, really interesting. So, you're quite passionate about mindfulness for people with MS. Then I take it?


Justin
 I am, I am at the same time. I think I balanced my own passion with a patience. I think, for some people finding it in their own way and some people trying it and deciding it's not for them, and for people to decide for themselves what is right for their situation and how their MS presents for them. So yeah, I feel that I feel that's important for me to say. So, I'm not massively evangelical about it. Maybe I am. But I try and temper it with. Yes, some realization that, those of us who have MS. Mainly, not all, but mainly We're adults. And mainly that means that we are decision makers in our own, in our own care and our own treatment. And how we want to live our lives. So, I try not to sell it to people. Let's put it that way.

Helena  
Yeah, you want people to find their own, their own journey. 

Justin
Yeah, I think so I think and the whole principles around being mindful and mindful meditation, for example, you know, patience, one of them is called non striving, which is about not trying too hard to have the result that you expect from engaging in mindfulness meditation, that says underlying philosophy of mindfulness really. So with that in mind, it doesn't make sense for me to promise to people, you know, do this. And this will be the end result. rather more to say, here are some ways you could bring this into your life. And if you find this beneficial, keep doing it, if you find there's no change, well, even if your MS relationship is your relationship with the disease is still the same. There may be other benefits that mindfulness gives you. But if somebody said to me, you know what, I'm doing this mindfulness meditation thing Justin and it's not healthy, in fact, I'm really not enjoying it, then I'd say, don't do it. Yeah.

Helena  
Yeah. So for somebody who is a bit of a novice in the world of mindfulness, could you talk us through some of the techniques that you use?

Justin
Sure, yeah. So for me, personally, I use some of the core practices around noticing the breath, noticing the in and out breath, not needing to change the breath, particularly, but just noticing my own breathing as it happens, noticing my bodily sensations, noticing my thoughts as I have them, and being aware of emotions or feelings that come up as well. And the reason I say the things I do personally. is things that I teach and share to others, whilst I do practice all of those, there are some real ‘go to’ things that I tend to rely on those that I've just mentioned, and a couple of others that are more guided meditation. So mindfulness isn't only meditating, but a core part of it is meditation. And a guided meditation is when you listen to someone's voice, or usually choose to listen to somebody else's voice, not my own. And they can take you through things like, you know, gradual muscle relaxation, or exploring, exploring emotions, or sometimes more visualization activities as well. 


Helena 
Yeah, I've seen because there's been a few sort of links and things I've looked at where there's all these different types of meditations for this or if you're feeling you know, you're feeling anxious about appointments, so that can be very specific, somebody's guided to type things.

Justin
They can Yeah, and I think that's really good that there's this recognition that certain events in your life when you have MS, like big appointments, like going in an MRI scanner can be quite stressful for some people, that some of the core practices around anticipation, anticipatory stress, or anxiety, because something is about to happen to you can be adapted to make the wording even more accessible in specific situations. For those of us with MS as well, worrying about the future is another one, we all worry about the future. That's something that's common to human beings. But there's a particular, I suspect there's a particular type of worrying about the future that affects those with chronic illnesses slightly differently. Yeah.

Helena  
Yeah. So, what's the if you're completely new to this, what's the best way to get started?

Justin
There are so many ways to get started. I'd say for anyone who's thinking about getting started, the question to ask yourself would be, what method would suit your lifestyle? At the moment. What method would suit your lifestyle most easily- most readily? For example, you can learn on YouTube videos, you can learn on apps, there are some brilliant apps. You can learn from live online classes from people like me. Or you can go to a class and learn in person with other people as well. Yeah. So, thinking about which of those would suit the amount of time that I can give, you know, travelling: can I travel? Do I want to travel? Do I also want to do it with other people or don't want to do it on my own? Once you answer those questions, I think that will give you a closer idea of the best way to start. But I think the best methods to use once you've decided when and how and where you want to do it are the core practices around, first of all, learning what mindfulness is, learning what it isn't, is quite important as well. But mindfulness isn't a mystical thing. You know, you're not going to levitate. 

Helena
Yeah. It would be useful!

Justin
Be great. Let's be honest, I'm up for a bit of that. But I think then once you understand what it is, there's nothing that can beat having a go. And having a go with a, a teacher with a trained teacher is the preferred option. Yeah, I would say just so that you are sort of starting off gradually building up your practice in a way that is easy, easy to follow, and that there's a habit that forms but also because a teacher can help you to navigate some of the very normal obstacles that can come up when you first learn as well, which you don't always get from reading it in a book, or watching a video. Yeah,

Helena  
that's very true. And it's nice to have someone to ask questions while you're while you're trying to do it. And I think you know that because you mentioned a few things. You mentioned videos and apps and teachers. I guess we can list some links in the show notes as well to some different things so that you will also link to your video that you did with us. Yes, I think that could be quite useful. And how would you say like, if you go to a course do, how long do they normally take and like how many weeks?

Justin
It does depend. But there is a course called Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction, that's one of one of several but Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction MBSR tends to be eight weeks long, for two hours at a time. So, two hours a week for eight weeks, usually with some form of retreat event as well built into it, which is easier to do face to face. It is online and online; sort of full day or half day retreat can be a little unusual. Not impossible. And there will be homework with that type, of course, as well. So, by homework, I don't mean writing. But practicing. Yeah, so if somebody was looking at doing mindfulness based stress reduction, which has got a pain element to it, among other things, that requires some commitment, in terms of coming every week, coming for the two hours, and doing anywhere from between sort of 10 minutes to 40 minutes a day of practicing as well, yeah, but there are shorter courses available as well. So, a lot of providers, and a lot of online schools offer bite size introductions, and something that are a bit more manageable for busy lives, maybe more like, you know, an hour a week. And sometimes shorter duration for the whole course, sometimes longer duration, you know, 12 weeks. Yeah, so really, it does really vary. So again, I think there's a question to ask ourselves there about what will fit with my energy levels, with my appetite for doing this, and of course, my lifestyle as well my commitments at home.

Helena  
That's really interesting. So, I will put my hands up and confess that I've tried a few times, but I've never tried a proper kind of training course, I've tried a few of these apps. And I love the idea of it. And I was really like I'm gonna, get this done now. But I found when I sat down, and I was like, Now, I'm gonna try and think of nothing. And it was just like, my brain suddenly went, oh, we're having a quiet moment. So now we need to think about this, we need to think about this, we need to think about all these things that need doing. And that was almost to the point where I was like, oh, my goodness, this is just too many, too many thoughts at once. So, my question here is, if you try this, and you struggled a bit, and this, I guess, will be more like the people like myself, who maybe tried it on my own rather than with a teacher. Do you have any top tips? 

Justin
Yes, for sure. I suppose listening to your example, one of my first thoughts is that when we approach meditation as part of mindfulness, the aim is not really to have a blank mind. Yeah. So, a lot of people do think that is the case and then struggle to have a blank mind. Because you know what the mind is never blank, the mind is never peace and quiet. You know, tranquility, whatever, we think it will be a big white wall or something is impossible, because…

Helena
Oh, I'm so glad you said that! 



Justin
Yeah, I couldn't do it. I could probably go about six seconds before I'd start thinking my left leg is gone numb. What's that noise? You know, is that the doorbell? So firstly, first thing is, don't worry about going for a blank mind and not achieving it the mind chucks thoughts at us all the time. And that's what minds do on automatic is throw things some of those will be in the past. So, memories, you know, regurgitating a conversation I had this morning. Some of it will be more future based. So, wondering about what you know what I need to put on my shopping list for later on or thinking about a big interview I've got to do tomorrow, or you know, something mundane, like, you know, it's raining and we're gonna take the dog out later. And all of that and everything else in between is completely normal. What mindfulness is about is being mindful of those thoughts as you have them. And it's about the difference between, I suppose, some people would say, I would say, it's the difference between living a life on automatic pilot where those thoughts pop up, and we aren't conscious that we're having them. And then before we know it, we've indulged that thought and taken it to its end conclusion. And then we might have the associated stress or anxiety or low mood that goes with that thought, almost as if we're living it for real, even though it's a thought, yeah. Instead, we still have that same thought. But we notice we're having a thought, almost like a detached observer of that thought. Sounds like an odd concept. I know. But it's sometimes described as putting some distance between you and your thoughts. Yeah. So, a phrase I use a lot with myself and with people I teach this to, is this phrase, ‘I notice, I'm having the thought that…’ and then you insert the thought. So, as an example, if I'm experiencing disappointment, for example, or I might be beating myself self-up in my head about something that's not going well at work. There's a difference between saying to myself, you're such an idiot. And saying, I noticed I'm having the thought that I'm such an idiot. The second one is somehow got less power, perhaps less sting in it. So why, why I shared that is to say, when we sit down and we think right, kind of do some mindfulness now, don't worry if those thoughts will pop up from everywhere. I think you asked me though, what do you do with those thoughts when they come up. And that's where the, the classes and the apps come in. Because all teachers have different methods. Some people recommend that you sort of visualize them, for example, some people visualize them as a hot air balloon, or helium balloon, and that thought is gradually drifting away into the sky. Other people like to use the thing of a sushi bar, then you've got that conveyor belt of dishes coming in past and just to notice your thoughts going past you, without you needing to associate with those thoughts. That's quite good, because it's got food in it. 

Helena
That's a plus!

Justin
But there are other techniques, like, you know, seeing thoughts as bubbles popping up on a still like surface, you know, clouds rolling by in the sky. And if you're not a visual thinker, because that's okay, as well, you can just sort of mentally note, and plan and have the thought about a thing I need to plan later. So, yes, it's all about noticing, as you have them, rather than not noticing, and then being caught up in that thought.

Helena  
That's really interesting. So that makes me feel like I probably gave up too early then.

Justin
Possibly, it's a very real obstacle, though, I think expecting a result. Yeah. At any point in your mindfulness journey, by the way, if you're brand new, or you've been doing it for years, expecting something to be as you want it today, because this was how it was yesterday, when I did the same recording or same app, it won't be, it won't be the same, you know, there'll be a different outcome. So, there is also this principle of acceptance, as well, as I said earlier, non-striving, not trying too hard. This idea of accepting whatever comes up, when you're trying a bit of mindfulness as being okay, as being part of your present moment experience. Accepting that and letting go of any ideal that you have, have a blissful, beautiful sunset, on one leg, sort of Yes. Open to the universe stuff. It doesn't look like that when I do it. It doesn't look like that when anyone does it. On Instagram, maybe? 

Helena  
Yes. With a nice hashtag 

Justin
Oh, yes. 

Helena
So were you saying about how long the classes last? So, because I quite often hear when people are talking about doing mindfulness, you could, if you wanted to prepare for a meeting or something, you can try and do something just before the meeting. So, you could potentially do it, you wouldn't need to set aside like, oh, I have an hour today to do it. You could do it in segments, like five minutes or something

Justin
you can and some of those techniques that are shorter, are really helpful when we might notice a heightened level of anxiety, for example, or if you were about to go into a meeting or you're about to go into, you know, around MS. For example, going into I keep mentioning MRI scanners, because I've helped a few people to really relax and calm down. Yeah, those techniques sometimes are, strictly speaking, not mindfulness meditation, they are more relaxation techniques, but they're still sort of related to mindfulness, I would say. So, they can be things that you can do in two minutes at your desk or sitting on public transport. are in a waiting room in a hospital without anyone needing to know that you're doing it. Sometimes we look at mindfulness as depicted online. And it looks like we have to wear certain clothes and a certain way and be, as I said, on one leg in a sunset. And it's not, it's something you can do anywhere. And a phrase that mindfulness teachers use a lot, it's really cheesy I warn you is, mindfulness of breath is the best one, because you've always got the equipment with you, you've always got breathing with you. So that's something you can always just bring your attention back to your inner and out breath. And it only takes, you know, a few, a few moments to do that. And you've brought your attention back to the here and now, which is the goal. 




Helena  
Oh, that's interesting. So actually, apart from doing exercises, before you have an MRI scan, if you're actually inside the scanner, maybe that might be a good place to to do a bit of mindfulness as well, because he can definitely be boring in those.

Justin
Absolutely. I think my last one was an hour and 40 minutes. It did give me a break halfway through. But I fell asleep because I do tend to do some of this when I'm in there, and I seem to be tired a lot of the time. Fall asleep. But yeah, you can do it while you're in there. You do it beforehand. Absolutely.

Helena  
And so, saying about being tired and talking about fatigue and things what, how can mindfulness sort of help with MS symptoms? Or how does your symptoms feel when you're doing mindfulness?

Justin
It's an interesting one, again, because I have had, I'd call it slightly inconsistent results with this around using it specifically on certain symptoms that I have. So, when I say slightly inconsistent, not predictably guaranteed, every time to the same level. But with regard to for example, pain, yeah, mindfulness doesn't remove pain, but it changes our relationship with pain. Our perception of pain, I suppose, is in I'm not a clinician, so I've probably saying I suppose our perception of that pain isn't the same as the pain. So, I guess all of us sometimes will have pain associated with MS. And on some days, it feels more intense or more painful than others, and the MS hasn't improved or got worse, necessarily. It's just not our perception. So, for me, Mindfulness helps me with that perception with that relationship with pain, with my tolerance, maybe as well. And I also would say there is there's huge benefit. And again, you know, research backs this up, but also in the wellbeing aspects, as well. So, the fact that, you know, it's a big deal having MS. And actually, if our overall outlook on life can be enhanced through these practices, it's worth doing as well. So that's another reason why I practice it.

Helena  
No, absolutely. I think it's funny, because we, this podcast will go out at the start of January and you know, everybody in January rushes around trying to they go on a diet, or they're gonna start exercising, it's gonna change their, their life. And I had actually made it as my sort of, I don't like to say New Year's resolutions, but you know, a task for the year was to try and really try to do mindfulness because I find that that would be a far better approach than trying, you know, after the stress off of December, trying to sort of, you know, cram in new exercise or lose weight or what have you, I feel like that it's, we like to, to bring it back to being kind to yourself this month, and actually really concentrating on, on feeling better. So, I feel like mindfulness that it I'm gonna give it a go this time. And I think I feel like now when you told me that I don't need to sit and come to a sort of a blank mind state because my mind clearly never wants to go there.

Justin 
Absolutely, it's something that you can also if you discover a local course near you, or you decide to practice with some teacher online, you will find there are some practices around mindfulness and mindful breathing, mindfulness meditation, that don't require you to sit still as well. So, for people who feel they have the mobility, and it is safe for you to walk about, for example, then that is a really, really good option. There are mindfulness techniques while you are walking. There are mindfulness techniques, you can learn and practice with headphones in, about appreciating the outdoors. So, it doesn't require us ever to sit on the floor with our legs crossed, as long as you are in a reasonably upright position for most of it. Because the posture there is one that embodies what we're aiming to do with mindfulness, which is to be aware and to be present and awake. So, you know, and upright back but nothing too. be rigid. It's fine. Yeah. So, I think you mentioned being kind to ourselves. And there's a real part I think mindfulness can play in, in that. And this point in the year that you mentioned January, sometimes we're not that kind to ourselves, we see this hashtag every year called New Year new you. I hate it. I like I like to replace it with, you know, new year strong you or something new year kind you something else. And there is definitely a place for some of those mindfulness practices around self-compassion example. But also letting go of this idea of who we ought to be and how we should be coping with our MS because we're all individual. And it affects each of us differently, doesn't it?

Helena  
It really does. And I think, you know, social media can do a lot of good things, but also a lot of bad things where you do get like you said, you see somebody on one leg out in the desert, and you feel like, oh, that's what I need to achieve, or, or this person is running, or this person is doing this, and why can't I do that? But yeah, we want to have our individual journey. And I think it's so important not to compare when it comes to this. And what about sceptics out there? I mean, I'm sure that you must run into these types of people. Why should? Why should they give it a chance? 

Justin
Yeah, that's a good point. I think I've had a few people say to me, since I've been diagnosed, and I'm open about my diagnosis, have asked me, what do I do? Am I do I have treatment? Do I follow any sort of advice? And well, I've shared about practicing mindfulness. They've said, well, how do you know it works? You know, how do you actually know that it's making any difference at all? And I suppose, I don't know for certain. But what I do know is that alongside for much of the time, me having an altered more, I'd won’t say more positive, but just, you know, an altered relationship with MS. It's also helping me to have better blood pressure. It's also helping me to deal with the other stressors in life, it's also helping me with low mood. There's research that suggests it's linked to better immune health. So, I think there's so many other benefits, not just you know, the MS thing, but I'd also say, you know, if somebody has looked at it, tried it, and really feels it's not for them, then that's probably the right decision for them, you know? Yeah. But there are for anyone who wants to look it up there are there are several clinical trials, research studies on this. So, it's gradually growing in, in acceptance, I suppose.

Helena  
Yeah. I mean, I think it's lovely to see that there's quite a lot of neurologists that are, you know, advising that this is, this is a route that you could go down, and certainly the MS nurses are talking about it as well. So, I feel like within the MS community, it's definitely something that is recommended. And I think that's, that's good. Yeah. And you spoke a little bit about, you know, going into courses, or doing it by yourself, if you're feeling a bit self-conscious about these things, because it can be a bit daunting to try something completely new. Have you got any advice for these people?

Justin
I think everybody, if you go to a group, everybody will be feeling self-conscious at first, everybody. I can remember, one of the early courses I went to many years ago, the very first session, doing what was required, you know, doing what the teacher was leading us through, but doing it and having sort of half of one eye open to look around and like, what does everyone else look like? Am I doing it the right? Is it look the same as everybody else? And I think that's really normal. And I think because mindfulness meditation at times asks us to be aware of and to practice things that ordinarily we wouldn't normally do. So, for example, if somebody says to you, you know, be aware of your breathing, notice your breathing. And that's not actually about changing our breathing pace or depth. Just be aware of it. Suddenly, most of us have the thought of, I don't know if this is my everyday breathing. Yeah, he's he said, be aware of my everyday breathing. What is this? How I breathe every I don't know is that and so like you said earlier thoughts pop up. Yeah. But there's also this questioning, Am I doing it right? Yeah. I think once we all accept, yeah, it's a bit self-conscious at first. We do move past it, and we do move past it and keep forming it as a habit. Then those thoughts of being self-conscious just fade away really.

Helena  
Here's a question if you want to get into mindfulness and you mentioned before that you were young when you started with this, and I feel like you know, they talk about being kind to your mind quite a lot in school these days. Is this something that you could involve the whole family with?

Justin
Absolutely, yes, I think that many if not, if not all, schools are so switched on to mental health and wellbeing nowadays. And mindfulness meditation also things like yoga and other breathwork is used in schools. And so, for example, my son learnt some mindfulness at primary school. I know it's an option senior school that he goes to. So actually, if you know, if you have young people in your life, and you're exploring mindfulness, why don't involve them as well, because there are definitely practices that you can do together. So that you're not alone. And it's also a good way of connecting with people as well as supporting the whole family's well being too Yeah.

Helena  
Before you go, Justin, could you just tell us a little bit where we can find you online? If people want to learn more? Or if they want to see what you're doing? What you're up to?

Justin
Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm on X, what used to be called Twitter- ‘The mindful Dad’, you can search for me on there. I also write a blog ‘Come on baby light, my fire.com’ I write about mindfulness. But I also write about psychology and personal improvement, leadership as well. And then there's a website called calmbarn.com. So calm C, a, l, m, and then barn as in a building on a farm B, a, r, n CalmBarn.com. 

Helena  
Brilliant and we'll pop those links in the show notes as well. This has been so interesting, Justin, I will let you know how I get on with my, my plans. And this, yeah, fantastic. And also, we will definitely link to your video that you did before, because I know that was very popular when people were when we livestream that during the episode this week. Thank you so much.

Justin
You're welcome. Great to be here.

Helena  
Now, if this was a commercial podcast here is where there would be an advert. But as you know, by now we are a charity. So, we don't do that. So instead, this is the time where we would like to take the opportunity to tell you all about our fantastic resources for people with MS.

Nick  
Yeah, and such a good place to start with this is our website, which is MSTrust.org.uk. On there, you're going to find information, resources, everything that that you need to help you make sense of MS. So, there, you'll find wellbeing and MS resources. So, there's ideas of how to live well with MS, how to try and exercise best. And then there's information about sleep, mental health, relaxation, mindfulness to say if you head over to the website, that's MS trust all.uk. And go ahead and click on the tab which says information support. And there, you'll see the health and wellbeing tab. Don't worry, of course, we'll link to anything that we mentioned in the show as well.

Helena  
I love talking to Justin, as you can tell from I got really quite inspired when he was talking about but, you know, bring him back to what you said before the interview there about how you think mindfulness is something because if you do you do a Google Image Search or google it and it will go to Instagram and search for mindfulness, you've definitely got to see some serene, you know, beautiful looking person sitting there in some yoga position looking like, you know, there's no clutter, everything's lovely. And you know, it's not everyday life. It is everyday life for some people, but the short isn't everyday life for me. So, like talking to him about the you know, that actually this can be done anywhere. This can be done mostly by everyone just made me feel really inspired to try it because I just, I think the vision of what you have of what mindfulness is, and what it actually is, is quite different. Have you ever tried mindfulness yourself, Nick?

Nick  
Yeah, no, I have tried it a few times. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I’ve done a little bit of sort of meditation and that kind of thing as well. And I think you're right, it does feel like almost like a barrier, doesn't it? Sometimes we went oh my gosh, I can't, you know, I find it really difficult to stay still and just concentrate on breathing or something like that. And, you know, I don't have all of the gear and the, the yoga chic and all that stuff. But actually, I think it's also inspired me as well actually. Yeah, it's something that I'd like to try again. And just those day to day things, isn't it? and I'm telling you what, like at the moment, I find myself there's a very rarely, you know, time in the day where I'm actually being conscious and aware because if I get like a spare minute, I'll often look down at my phone, or like scroll through, you know, social media or scroll through, you know, stuff that news stuff that I'm interested in on my phone. I like actually during a lot of the time. I'm not actually being present. Yeah. And actually, though that's some of those just like small windows in the day that actually, I probably could be doing more.

Helena  
Yeah, I think it was interesting, because some of the things he was saying is that it doesn't need to necessarily be, you know, sat still doing it, you could do mindfulness while you're walking and things quite a lot of the times you find me like, when I'm walking into work, I feel quite present in the now because I'm looking and noticing what's around me, you know, there's a bit of nature, we got lots of squirrels out at the moment. And that's very cute. But like you say, otherwise, if you have five minutes, you sort of quite easily started doing the scrolling. And then suddenly, it's like, 20 minutes later, and you haven't really, you don't even know what you looked at. If somebody would ask you, what did you just read? You're like, well, I don't know. So I think it's, it's interesting, because I think for me to make this sort of thing work, I would almost have to build it in as a routine rather than trying to say that, okay, I'm gonna just do it as a when, I'm going to take five minutes out at lunchtime or something. But like, for me, when I started running, it was very much like, I have to do it through a schedule. So, I put down like, these are the two the days that I'm going to try to go and do a run on following this, this program. So, I quite liked the idea of this sort of being, if you sign up for a class that you have, like, a specific time of the day that you do it, because I think it's that there's been lots of research in this, isn't it? And I think Charlie Peel talked about this in a previous episode, we can link to that, about the research of how long it takes to build a routine. And when you look to notice changes. So, I think maybe the sort of the idea of saying, okay, well, I'm going to try starting this. And that could be either for signing up for a class or downloading one of the apps, we will link to some of the apps in the, in the show notes as well. I didn't really talk to Justin about them, but he mentioned a few to me afterwards. So, I will definitely link to those ones on there. But you know, there's things like headspace and that that you could sign up to for free and just try out some of these like little plans. But I think actually trying to sit I mean, obviously things work differently for everyone, doesn't it? But I feel like for me, I would have to try and make it into to almost have it as a team's reminder on my own on Outlook, maybe saying that, okay, well, today, on Wednesday, lunchtime. This is when you go and do some mindfulness. And then I would actually prioritize it rather than end up doing screw and scrolling on my phone.

Nick  
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think it's definitely a good thing, I think. Yeah, I think if it's not booked in, no, not necessarily on a calendar. But unless I sort of made the plan of like, I'm going to meditate or be mindful is, for me, it's far too easy to fall into that. You know, those situations where I'm scrolling, rather than, I'll just stick the telly on. Instead, I've got 10 minutes. But I think also what I find is when I do fall into those traps of doom scrolling of, you know, just stick it on the radio, or the TV or whatever and sort of zoning out is that actually throughout the day, I won't feel as good or if it is productive. So, it's interesting listening to Justin about like, you know, the impact that it has on his sort of day-to-day life. And just like some of those interactions with other people, for example, you know, like, if someone cuts you off on the road or something, you know, if I've, if I've had five minutes where I've been mindful or meditated or something up probably will react in a different way to if I’ve got up scrolled through my phone, watching the telly or not really listening, you know, whatever, completely zoned out of everything. And then someone cuts me off on the road I’m much more likely to react in probably a negative way. But we won't mention what that might look like.

Helena  
I think one of the things I liked what you were saying about that you don't have to have a blank mind either to try and do it because even though I can sort of zone out completely, I don't feel like then I'm not at all. According to that definition of being you know what, what is it the quality or state of being conscious or aware of something is almost like the opposite of that when you start settling out but like when I was trying to do when I was trying to do mindfulness before I was really super aware of all these random thoughts like really stupid thoughts that popped into my head that I thought like they shouldn't be here now I'm supposed to do mindfulness now. What am I thinking about tomorrow's dinners or whether I got enough socks for the kids? But actually, but that was sort of almost doing mindfulness there because I wasn't noticing these thoughts. And I noticed that they come up, but that strange, strange time. So I suppose it's like when you when you've had a bad interaction with someone on the, you know, on the on the motorway or what have you and that you would actually instead of feeling really like, Yes, I'm acknowledging that these feelings are here, rather than just kind of? I don't know, it's a bit of a different state of mind, isn't it?

Nick  
For sure, yeah, you're much more aware, much more present on you and much less reactive. So, yeah, I think yeah, it's definitely it's made me think about, you know, starting again, trying to get back into it so. And during the recording Helena, as well, Justin sort of talked about some of the resources that he made last year, with the MS trust as well. So, there's a video about why he practices mindfulness with MS. And why you might be able to give that a go too, and also a guided meditation as well. So, if you want to have a go at, you know, completing the guided meditation or not to start not sure where to start, that could be a good jumping off point. And so, we will link to that in the show notes. And so, give it a go, please do let us know, if you have a go at it, you know, either drop us a comment on our social media or on our YouTube, or drop us a line on comms at MS. Trust org.uk. We'd love to hear from you. We'd also really like to hear from you as well, if you've got any ideas for topics that you'd like to hear covered on the podcast. So that email address again is comms at MS. trust.uk. Speaking of getting in touch, if you do have any questions about MS, we're always here for you. So you can go ahead and get in contact with our helpline service, which is available from Monday to Friday apart from UK bank holidays, that's between the hours of 9am to 5pm. Outside of these hours, so you can leave us a message and we will get back to you as soon as we can. So, the number to call us on is 0800 032 38 39. And if you'd rather get in contact via email, you can contact the helpline team on there on Ask at MS trust.org.uk.

Helena  
And you can always find us on social media as well. We are on Facebook, YouTube, X, TikTok and Instagram and you can find this podcast on what most places where you would listen to podcasts like Spotify and Apple podcasts and Amazon music. And the video is up on YouTube as well. So, you always feel free to drop us some comments on there as well. And we'd absolutely love it if you like and subscribe for the for the for YouTube and for the podcast. And you know if you want to give us a review, we would absolutely love that too. And then I guess I'm off to try some more mindfulness now.


Nick  
Sounds good Helena. Yeah, enjoy.